tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post3966678291238830010..comments2023-05-12T10:37:20.308-05:00Comments on Examining Calvinism: J. Vernon McGee comments on the AtonementRichard Coordshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-71382189119460935472009-06-05T11:19:00.520-05:002009-06-05T11:19:00.520-05:00I agree and thank you for this very important and ...I agree and thank you for this very important and informative blog. I enjoy studying with J. Vernon McGee.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01776323114147933435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-43668082942663413072008-08-22T09:49:00.000-05:002008-08-22T09:49:00.000-05:00kevin,Jn 3:19-21 is the key. It is the definition ...kevin,<BR/><BR/>Jn 3:19-21 is the key. It is the definition and explanation of judgment.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-38522232103663686052008-08-22T09:31:00.000-05:002008-08-22T09:31:00.000-05:00Helmet,The gospel of John very clearly says that 1...Helmet,<BR/><BR/><I>The gospel of John very clearly says that 1) The father does not judge any one but has deligated this to the son. 2) Jesus says there he doesn't judge any one either.<BR/><BR/>"you judge according to the flesh, I don't judge anybody".<BR/><BR/>"I did not come to judge, but to save".</I><BR/><BR/>...then...in the next comment...<BR/><BR/><I>And jay, let me say that I believe that surely Jesus is the judge of the living and the dead.</I><BR/><BR/>You get the gold for the backstroke.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-84869724504936907262008-08-22T08:59:00.000-05:002008-08-22T08:59:00.000-05:00I did not claim to speak for others. Surely the or...I did not claim to speak for others. Surely the orthodox view is as presented by richard. And jay, let me say that I believe that surely Jesus is the judge of the living and the dead. But what exactly is "gehenna" -- I leave this an open question.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-2364106617524392092008-08-21T20:36:00.000-05:002008-08-21T20:36:00.000-05:00Richard,Glad to know that Arminians are not comple...Richard,<BR/><BR/>Glad to know that Arminians are not <I>completely</I> unhinged from Scripture...generally. ;)<BR/><BR/>Watch out for alligators...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-67579659543006523052008-08-21T18:50:00.000-05:002008-08-21T18:50:00.000-05:00Sorry guys, I apologize for the delays. I am a cat...Sorry guys, <BR/><BR/>I apologize for the delays. I am a catastrophe insurance adjuster and with Tropical Storm, Fay, I've been slammed. My contributions will be minimal for a couple of weeks.<BR/><BR/>I'll post some quotes from McGee tonight. <BR/><BR/>I haven't had a chance to go through all of the posts, but I caught Kevin's question about Hell. The majority of Arminians hold the view that there is a literal Hell. Luke 16:19-31 is commonly cited to show the state of the damned (remorse, memory, regret, ect, wide specturm of emotions). I do not believe that it is merely a parable. Jesus never used people's real names in parables. Even if it was a parable, Jesus ' parables were based upon things that people could identify with, such as runnaway children, lost & found coins, buried treasure, merchants, farming, ect. I believe in a literal Hell with eternal torment. I also believe in a literal Heaven with eternal glory. <BR/><BR/>I'll now post the new Blog post.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-49511244516014883052008-08-21T13:25:00.000-05:002008-08-21T13:25:00.000-05:00I am new to this blog, so forgive me for being so ...I am new to this blog, so forgive me for being so bold. But, if Helmet's views are representative of the Arminian view, and Arminians do not believe that Jesus is the judge of the living and the dead, then one wonders how an Arminian can claim to be orthodox. Wouldn't such a view be, by definition, heretical?Jay Youngbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13426390755411973001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-78477715142295756932008-08-21T13:17:00.000-05:002008-08-21T13:17:00.000-05:00Helmet:I have looked at verses that you cite for t...Helmet:<BR/><BR/>I have looked at verses that you cite for the contention Jesus claimed the he did not judge anyone. I am afraid that you have lifted these verses out of their context and given them a meaning that was not intended, either implicitly or explicitly. For example, John 8:15 cannot be read in the way that you do if you read the immediately following verses in context. Clearly, Jesus was chastising the pharisees for their judgment of people based on external actions and based upon their own "sensibilities." Jesus was drawing a distinction between their judgment and His judgment, which is not based on outward appearances but is a judgment of a person's heart. Jesus was also articulating the fact that He, in fact, does not judge alone but in conjunction with the Father. To lift this verse out its context and to give it a meaning such as the one that you have imposed is disingenuous at best.Jay Youngbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13426390755411973001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-30547349695416236492008-08-21T08:17:00.000-05:002008-08-21T08:17:00.000-05:00I thought Calvinists were supposed to be the logic...I thought Calvinists were supposed to be the logicians...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-76811577034903683942008-08-21T07:35:00.000-05:002008-08-21T07:35:00.000-05:00kevin,first of all, of course I know the passages ...kevin,<BR/><BR/>first of all, of course I know the passages you quote that contain the word "hell". The greek word here is "gehenna" and it meant the garbage dumpsite of Jerusalem, outside the walls of the city. The fire was burning constantly there. <BR/>It surely is associated with judgement. The Jews believed in a military messiah, who would execute the judgment in a worldy way, that is, quite literal, destructing all the enemies and raising all the faithful dead. Destroying the enemies would fit into the picture of burning at "gehenna". Actually the Messiah fullfilled the judgment in a radically different way. "Gehenna" does not exist any more. Surely it was metaphorical. But we do not know whether it was intended to bring anything else than death and we neither know, whether after the crucifiction of Christ this threatening is still valid. For note as well, all these sayings are pre-easter aren't they? They were spoken before the redeeming work of Christ. The synoptics with all the parables are very judicial in their style. They appeal to the jewish understanding of a Messiah, as the Jews expected the Messiah. But there are good reasons to believe that the judgment was fulfilled in a vastly different way. <BR/><BR/>The gospel of John very clearly says that 1) The father does not judge any one but has deligated this to the son. 2) Jesus says there he doesn't judge any one either. <BR/><BR/>"you judge according to the flesh, I don't judge anybody".<BR/><BR/>"I did not come to judge, but to save".<BR/><BR/>With the son of man judgement was fulfilled, but not the way it was expected.<BR/><BR/>The crucial judgment passage, where condemnation is actually explained, is John 3:19-21. <BR/><BR/>There is much said about in "On the Knowledge of Good and Evil" parts IX and X. On the blog http://livingbyknowledge.blogspot.com<BR/><BR/>As to your first question, how does sin affect God Himself, there is some explanation in the post "The fulfillment of the law by Jesus Christ" on http://meditationonthegospelofjohn.blogspot.com<BR/><BR/>It explains what the transgression of the laws in fact means and answers that question.<BR/><BR/>You may comment there.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-65328946898024314882008-08-21T06:46:00.000-05:002008-08-21T06:46:00.000-05:00Helmet,Setting aside the doctrine of impassibility...Helmet,<BR/><BR/>Setting aside the doctrine of impassibility for the moment, I’ll bite. Tell me your view of sin’s effect on God.<BR/><BR/>I am curious to hear this in light of verses such as “For I the Lord do not change;” (Malachi 3:6).<BR/><BR/>Second, as to the literal and eternal existence of hell, Jesus spoke more about it than any other person in the Bible. I wonder if you have considered the following uses of the word “hell” in your charge that “the scriptural foundation is quite weak.” Of course, there are other references to eternal punishment that are not listed below.<BR/><BR/>But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. (Matthew 5:22)<BR/><BR/>If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. (Matthew 5:29)<BR/><BR/>And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. (Matthew 5:30)<BR/><BR/>And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)<BR/><BR/>And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)<BR/><BR/>And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. (Matthew 18:9)<BR/><BR/>Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. (Matthew 23:15)<BR/><BR/>You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? (Matthew 23:33)<BR/><BR/>And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. (Mark 9:43)<BR/><BR/>And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. (Mark 9:45)<BR/><BR/>And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, (Mark 9:47)<BR/><BR/>But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (Luke 12:5)<BR/><BR/>And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell. (James 3:6)<BR/><BR/>For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; (2 Peter 2:4)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-4778435106490117292008-08-21T05:24:00.000-05:002008-08-21T05:24:00.000-05:00kevin,I think it is important to know the effect o...kevin,<BR/><BR/>I think it is important to know the effect of human sin on God Himself. In what way does sin harm God? How severe is sin in the sight of God? In what way does sin destroy the order of God? Does God suffer from our sin? And how angry, in human terms, is He at sin ? Is God irascible? Violent? Insulted?<BR/><BR/>I think those are crucial questions as well.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-15566660616423578802008-08-20T07:19:00.000-05:002008-08-20T07:19:00.000-05:00Richard,Do Arminians deny a literal and eternal He...Richard,<BR/><BR/>Do Arminians deny a literal and eternal Hell?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-52654646143874168822008-08-20T06:33:00.000-05:002008-08-20T06:33:00.000-05:00kevin,I think the scriptural foundation is quite w...kevin,<BR/><BR/>I think the scriptural foundation is quite weak. I do not know what will actually happen in the future. Note, when the first humans were cast out of the garden, they were actually damned for ever. At least so it must have looked at that time. There was no mentioning that God would mercifully contact mankind later on. They were cast out of the garden -- period. But later God showed mercy and made a covenant.<BR/>So while it may look like something is definite, there may come more light in later times. The book of Revelation says somewhere "the first things are over" (or something like that). <BR/><BR/>But note also, when the first humans were cast out of paradise, the reason was that they should not have access to the tree of life. They had been informed that they would die, yet the tree of life would bring everlasting existence. Wouldn't that mean everlasting existence in a state of damnation? It looks like God was mercifully avoiding that by driving them away from the tree of life, so that they might die.<BR/><BR/>Also the book of revelation speaks about the wrath of God being completed by the last bowl. The wrath completed -- finite.<BR/><BR/>So to answer your question: No, I do not believe that.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-45726719905809517162008-08-19T22:23:00.000-05:002008-08-19T22:23:00.000-05:00Helmet,I take it that you do not believe in an ete...Helmet,<BR/><BR/>I take it that you do not believe in an eternal Hell...am I correct?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-16350637191190064582008-08-19T18:54:00.000-05:002008-08-19T18:54:00.000-05:00kevin rhyne,you said it already. He dies. Period. ...kevin rhyne,<BR/><BR/>you said it already. He dies. Period. <BR/><BR/>:-)a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-47730911550927135732008-08-19T13:25:00.000-05:002008-08-19T13:25:00.000-05:00Helmet,So we all deserve death. We are all condem...Helmet,<BR/><BR/>So we all deserve death. We are all condemned to death already. (John 3:18) How do we get eternal life?<BR/><BR/>For the wages of sin is death, <B>but the free gift of God is eternal life <I>in Christ Jesus</I> our Lord</B>. (Romans 6:23)<BR/><BR/>Also, as Peter testified,<BR/><BR/>And there is salvation in <B>no one else</B>, for there is <B>no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved</B>. (Acts 4:12)<BR/><BR/>So, again, what happens to the man on the island who never hears of Christ?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-34986100720613851022008-08-19T13:10:00.000-05:002008-08-19T13:10:00.000-05:00"The wages for sin is death"."The day you eat ther..."The wages for sin is death".<BR/><BR/>"The day you eat thereof you shall surely die."a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-61907789701196851782008-08-19T12:57:00.000-05:002008-08-19T12:57:00.000-05:00Helmet,If they are not coming to the Father, where...Helmet,<BR/><BR/>If they are not coming to the Father, where are they going? If they are not coming through Christ, what other way does the Text say is available?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-87051582604121402942008-08-19T12:36:00.000-05:002008-08-19T12:36:00.000-05:00kevin rhyne,the text you quote does not contain th...kevin rhyne,<BR/><BR/>the text you quote does not contain that word. I do not share your opinion.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-58147442225946473272008-08-19T06:27:00.000-05:002008-08-19T06:27:00.000-05:00chalee,Concerning fruit, this articlehttp://living...chalee,<BR/>Concerning fruit, this article<BR/><BR/>http://livingbyknowledge.blogspot.com/2008/07/on-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-viii.html<BR/><BR/>might be good to read.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-25952008292882111602008-08-18T23:02:00.000-05:002008-08-18T23:02:00.000-05:00helmet asked: How do we know whether we "love enou...helmet asked: How do we know whether we "love enough" or "love rightly?"<BR/><BR/>our demonstrations of love will never measure up to God's perfect standard, so it's fortunate that we are forgiven based on Christ's merit and not our performance.<BR/><BR/>the standards set in matt18 and 1cor5 are relatively low. you don't have to have "great faith" to avoid the openly unrepentant attachment to your sin depicted in those chapters. those who despise the correction of scripture through their local church body should not receive any assurance of salvation.<BR/><BR/>beyond that, i think we just need to keep going back to scripture, keep re-learning the gospel, keep meeting together with other christians who will challenge us to be honest about our sin in areas where we can't see it ourselves, and keep trusting Jesus to help us in our repentance and to finish what He started. IMO, the calvinists are correct that perseverance is essential, meaning that those "who stand firm to the end will be saved." (Mark13:13) not because of their own strength and goodness but because of His commitment: "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful." 1Cor1:8-9 (also 1Pet5:10; 2Cor3:17-18 among others)<BR/><BR/>we won't love perfectly, but believers should be marked by a willingness to continue to repent and continue loving as best they can, in obedience to Christ out of gratitude for His work. i think any sort of marker that would tell us that we had "loved enough" would be counterproductive...we aren't done with this "race" called life (heb12:1; 2tim4:7; phil3:12) till God takes us home. <BR/><BR/>so if you are maintaining fellowship with other believers and running the race with perseverance - even though haltingly and imperfectly - then yeah, i would say there's valid reason for assurance. <BR/><BR/>but yeah, i would not set up any list of performance expectations or whatever besides what is taught in scripture...i do think there is an expectation of a willingness to be changed and a description of what the "fruit" of such change will look like (as in the verses/chapters quoted earlier) but other than the "minimums" listed above, i don't think there is any specific "fruit" required for every believer that would "prove" their election.<BR/><BR/>if i'm still not getting you or you think i'm taking something for granted as obvious that needs to be stated, feel free to clarify further...or i'll comment on your latest post when i can get to it and it can be discussed there.<BR/><BR/>(BTW, while i disagree with billy graham and c.s. lewis on that issue - and think their arminian leanings are part of what led them toward that "inclusivist" error which denies romans 10 in their desire to defend God as "fair" and "good" by human standards - i have a high regard for both of them in general. just to be clear.)chaleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11362350064376943436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-26439840033834112822008-08-17T16:08:00.000-05:002008-08-17T16:08:00.000-05:00Helmet,It’s pretty clear from Scripture that they ...Helmet,<BR/><BR/>It’s pretty clear from Scripture that they go to hell.<BR/><BR/>Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-28174475386325613652008-08-16T06:07:00.000-05:002008-08-16T06:07:00.000-05:00kevin,I don't know. What do you think?kevin,<BR/><BR/>I don't know. What do you think?a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-69462605997712276322008-08-15T21:19:00.000-05:002008-08-15T21:19:00.000-05:00Helmet,I'm just curious. What happens to the nati...Helmet,<BR/><BR/>I'm just curious. What happens to the native on the island who dies without ever hearing the name of Jesus?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.com