tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post8430181301246285256..comments2023-05-12T10:37:20.308-05:00Comments on Examining Calvinism: What makes a Calvinist, a "Calvinist"?Richard Coordshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-27689021172769216442008-09-30T14:23:00.000-05:002008-09-30T14:23:00.000-05:00Guys, you'all are too deep here. Take it from a si...Guys, you'all are too deep here. Take it from a simple man of simple faith. Christ died for me, but not only for me, he died for everyone ever, past present and future. These proud, arrogant young Calvinists have stolen my daughter from me. They do not show Christ in their lives only in their words, which are many (too many). The Calvinism that I have witnessed first hand most certainly is a cult, it is a lie perpetrated by the father of lies. How else could a Christian believe that God predestined his own creation, created in his image to spend eternity in hell for his good pleasure. It is just plain stupid.billy in slohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09408824929841343923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-47254752574679748942008-09-27T05:31:00.000-05:002008-09-27T05:31:00.000-05:00chalee,I wrote a comment on James 2:14-26 on the b...chalee,<BR/><BR/>I wrote a comment on James 2:14-26 on the blog "Living by knowledge" in defense of Sola Fide.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-60367415965894241892008-09-06T09:35:00.000-05:002008-09-06T09:35:00.000-05:00chalee,if your belief is nothing more than head kn...chalee,<BR/><I>if your belief is nothing more than head knowledge - like that of the demons, with no resultant repentance and obedience - then it will not save you. </I><BR/><BR/>That is absolutely not the content of the text. The faith of demons there is merely monotheistic. They shudder! They have fear! Why? Fear is always due to a lack of knowledge. The faith rejected there is not "head faith" but quite the opposite, the kind of allahistic faith -- calvinistic faith, sadly, is similar. The demonic faith has no knowledge at all, therefore they tremble.<BR/>Allahists believe in the oneness of God and cannot stress this creed enough -- yet they are enslaved to an ever unknown master. The slave does not know what his master does -- he trembles!<BR/><BR/>Concerning works. Note, judgment is always by works. The OT references regarding this fact are overwhelming. Even Paul in Romans 2 clearly emphasizes judgment by works. And Rev. 20 says : "they were judged according to what is written in the books, <B>by their works</B>.<BR/><BR/>In fact judgment is by works alone. No one is asked before the judgment throne "What did you believe". Judgment is clearly by works and works alone.<BR/><BR/>The crucial issue is, how the judgment is done. What is going on at judgment and how is it explained.<BR/><BR/>John 3:19-21 is the key. Here is the explanation what the judgment is all about, how it is performed.<BR/><BR/><I> This is the judgment that the light came into the world and men loved darkness rather than light for their <B>deeds</B> were evil. Every one who <B>does</B> evil hates the light and does not come to the light lest his <B>deeds</B> should be reproved. But whoever <B>does the truth </B> comes to the light, so that his <B>deeds</B> may be revealed that they are <B>wrought</B> in God".</I><BR/><BR/>So here is in which way judgment has to do with works. This must be understood. <BR/><BR/>"This is <B> eternal life </B> that they may <B>know You </B>, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent"<BR/><BR/>Eternal Life is the Knowledge of Truth!<BR/><BR/><B> Viva Sola Fide! </B><BR/><BR/>Kehrhelma helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-71574662915197986292008-09-06T08:54:00.000-05:002008-09-06T08:54:00.000-05:00helmet said: "The gospel is not addressed to demon...helmet said: "The gospel is not addressed to demons, but to humans. That has nothing to do with true/untrue faith. The promise it not the demons'."<BR/><BR/>this is a non sequitur and you have to know that.<BR/><BR/>james is addressed to <I>us</I>, not to demons. the Holy Spirit inspired james to teach <I>us</I> something, namely that if your belief is nothing more than head knowledge - like that of the demons, with no resultant repentance and obedience - then it will not save you.<BR/><BR/>helmet said: "<I>"faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." (james 2:17)</I><BR/><BR/>So we can go to bury Sola Fide !?"<BR/><BR/>scripture does teach <I>sola fide</I>, so james must be understood along with the doctrine of "faith alone", as reformed believers have done for half a millenium. luther had reservations about reconciling the book of james with <I>sola fide</I> also, but chose to bow his knee to the word of God. i commend his example to you.<BR/><BR/>helmet said: "Since the dead in sin cannot do any good, so the one dead to sin, cannot do any bad. But that is clearly not the message in Rom 6."<BR/><BR/>no calvinist was saying that was the message of rom6. who are you arguing with? <BR/><BR/>since calvinist doctrine (unlike say, some of the wesleyans and charismatics) teaches that while believers are no longer enslaved by sin, they do still sin and could never claim to be without sin (1 John 1:8), i'm not going to bother much with it. luther's first thesis still stands: "Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said 'Repent!', willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance."<BR/><BR/>i notice you still have no answer at all for 1cor5. in spite of your reasoning, the apostle paul saw a man's "bad fruit" (i.e. he had his father's wife and was unrepentant) and in fact concluded he should be treated as a "bad tree" and expelled from the "forest" of professing believers, in spite of his former confession of Christ and baptism. this was partially "for the world's sake" as you have correctly said, but it also completely denies the offender any assurance of salvation by refusing fellowship and access to the Lord's table, despite his confessed "faith." <BR/><BR/>paul is encouraging the church to judge its members by their works in some sense (1cor5:11-12) at the same time as he taught them that salvation was by "faith alone." in this type of situation, if someone refused to repent of their sins (see also, matt18), they were to be considered an unbeliever, <I>despite</I> verbal confessions of Christ and baptism. you would do well to wrestle with that.chaleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11362350064376943436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-15128625623898493362008-09-05T07:51:00.000-05:002008-09-05T07:51:00.000-05:00Concerning Romans 6 Romans 6 speaks of the christi...<B> Concerning Romans 6 </B><BR/><BR/>Romans 6 speaks of the christians having died to sin. Before conversion, they were dead <B>in</B> sin, now they are dead <B>to</B> sin. <BR/><BR/>Applying the <I>physical death = spiritual death </I>comparison, with Lazarus being the ever emphasized example of natural man being unble to come to faith, we must say that since Christians have died <B> TO </B> sin, they now cannot sin any more.<BR/><BR/>Since the dead in sin cannot do any good, so the one dead to sin, cannot do any bad. <BR/><BR/>But that is clearly not the message in Rom 6.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-30650617992420362342008-09-03T05:38:00.000-05:002008-09-03T05:38:00.000-05:00the demons "believe" that Jesus is the Son of God,...<I>the demons "believe" that Jesus is the Son of God, yet they don't have true faith.</I><BR/><BR/>The gospel is not addressed to demons, but to humans. That has nothing to do with true/untrue faith. The promise it not the demons'.<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>"faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>So we can go to bury <I>Sola Fide</I> !?<BR/><BR/>You end up with the problem of every works-oriented religion. Where is the line between "enough action" and "missed the mark" ? <BR/><BR/>How do you know whether you are above the limit? Or slightly below?<BR/><BR/>Yes, Calvinism is radically works-based. One only needs to hear the sermons of Paul Washer. <BR/><BR/>Works, works, works.....!a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-46447040313328060452008-09-03T04:46:00.000-05:002008-09-03T04:46:00.000-05:00chalee, non-christians who deny Christ by definiti...chalee,<BR/><I> non-christians who deny Christ by definition do not have "good fruit" because they lack faith in the One True God - the bible is clear in this, yet you still seem confused. </I><BR/><BR/>Everyone who denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and is the son of God can be excluded. That is clear from scripture I agree. (Note however, that Mormons do not count among that group!)But....what does this have to do with Calvinism's unclarity concerning the knowledge of fruit? To put it a different way: How to distinguish the thorny ground from the good ground?<BR/><BR/>Fruit is <B>self-evident</B><BR/>It doesn't need any further standard to be measured by.<BR/><BR/>It's like drinking water. You know by the taste whether it is sweet or salty. You do not need to see the source of the water, whether it comes from the ocean or from a river in order to know whether it is good (sweet) or bad (salty) to drink. Fruit is self-telling. <BR/><BR/><I>The bible is clear in this</I><BR/><BR/>According to Calvinsm it is not clear what fruit is! A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and vice versa. Can there be a joyful, self-controlled idol worshipper?<BR/><BR/>Kehrhelma helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-52493339866900520202008-09-02T21:57:00.000-05:002008-09-02T21:57:00.000-05:00helmet said: "Furthermore there is no such distinc...helmet said: "Furthermore there is no such distinction between "true" faith and "head" faith! Where do you get this concept from? Certainly not from the scriptures."<BR/><BR/>this has been answered numerous times - james 2:19...Mark 3:11. the demons "believe" that Jesus is the Son of God, yet they don't have true faith.<BR/><BR/><I>"faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."</I><BR/><BR/>helmet said: "But the question is open: How do you know someone by its fruit? Do all Christians behave properly? Are there non-christians who seem to have a lot of "good fruit"?"<BR/><BR/>the question is open to whom? to you? this has been answered. non-christians who deny Christ by definition do not have "good fruit" because they lack faith in the One True God - the bible is clear in this, yet you still seem confused.<BR/><BR/>helmet said: "Do not judge the fruit by the tree but the tree by the fruit!<BR/><BR/>For these reasons mentioned above, there is the grace of God! We receive grace, so that we may inherit the kingdom of God, even though we cannot help being slaves to the flesh! Such is the good news of God's grace!"<BR/><BR/>the grace of God is such that, although we continue to war with the flesh, we are no longer slaves to sin. any sort of "grace" which saves but is helpless to change us and conform us to the image of Christ is not a true biblical representation of grace. it is a human mockery of biblical grace. <BR/><BR/>the apostle paul did not tell the corinthian man who had his father's wife that he "could not help being a slave to the flesh" and not to worry because he had "grace." paul ordered that he be barred from the Lord's table by the church and treated as an unbeliever. he was not to be encouraged by the church that he was forgiven or loosed (matt18:18) from his sin by grace but that his sin was bound to him until such time as he repented.<BR/><BR/>your notion of cheap grace can't explain why paul would charge a local church to expel such a man, who had proclaimed that he believed in Jesus. (1cor5:11) this should be a clue to you that your theology is flawed.chaleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11362350064376943436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-20665789479247922332008-09-01T11:54:00.000-05:002008-09-01T11:54:00.000-05:00Hey Tom,Thanks for the explanation, and I’d like t...Hey Tom,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the explanation, and I’d like to dissect one part of the quote for further examination:<BR/><BR/>“<I>…the Father appointed the Son Jesus Christ...to redeem the elect…</I>” <BR/><BR/>Question: How did they become the Father’s ‘elect’ in the first place, in order to be given to the Son? <BR/><BR/>In other words, what is the source of the Father’s grace upon them, resulting in the Father’s appointment of the Son to be their Redeemer? <BR/><BR/>Their election with the Father is Christocentric because...the Father gives them to His Son? <BR/><BR/>That answer doesn’t add up because it would be Christocentric only on the <I>back-end</I>. The Arminian wants to know how Calvinistic Election is Christocentric on the <I>front-end</I>.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-59316031201699239782008-08-31T21:51:00.000-05:002008-08-31T21:51:00.000-05:00Richard,You said:Are you saying that Calvinistic E...Richard,<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/><I>Are you saying that Calvinistic Election is Christ-centered because God and Christ jointly chose us in Christ, as per Ephesians 1:4? How would that make any sense? </I><BR/><BR/>First, let me be clear that I believe in the Trinity. One God in Three persons. With that basis, I also want to be clear that each of the persons have distinct roles, at least in our understanding. <BR/><BR/>The agreement between God and Christ is known as the Covenant of Redemption. It is defined this way: "<I>The covenant of redemption is the eternal agreement within the Godhead in which the Father appointed the Son Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit to redeem the elect from the guilt and power of sin. God appointed Christ to live a life of perfect obedience to the law and to die a penal, substitutionary, sacrificial death as the covenantal representative for all who trust in him.</I> This definition came from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_theology. <BR/><BR/>Election is Christ-centered due to the means in which it is accomplished. Also, our hope is only through Jesus and His obedience in going to the Cross. <BR/><BR/>I will be read your next post. Should be interesting.<BR/><BR/>Tom<BR/>www.sanctification.wordpress.comTom Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09644165117159582995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-14067091879509290672008-08-31T20:22:00.000-05:002008-08-31T20:22:00.000-05:00Tom,I posted a comment on your explanation of &quo...Tom,<BR/><BR/>I posted a comment on your explanation of "agreement," and I appreciate you offering your explanation, which is why I would like to take the next step of developing that dialogue further by making it the basis for the next Blog Post. In that next post, McGee will state why our standing with the Father is Christocentric, and doing so, from the perspective of Jesus as Mediator. (My thought is that the "agreement" answer just lacks traction, because it appears to be forcing the Son into the role & function of the Father in order to make Calvinistic Election, Christocentric.)Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-19288868978049541542008-08-31T15:23:00.000-05:002008-08-31T15:23:00.000-05:00Kerhelm,You said:Calvinism is a works-based system...Kerhelm,<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/><I>Calvinism is a works-based system to the core. Simply put, there is no salvation apart from works.</I><BR/><BR/>Statements like this make it very clear that you do not understand Calvinism at all. You keep going back to the same claims that I have refuted. I am sorry that I have been unable to open your eyes to the truth. I have enjoyed the opportunity to try.<BR/><BR/>Tom<BR/>www.sanctification.wordpress.comTom Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09644165117159582995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-46885614603818898682008-08-31T08:39:00.000-05:002008-08-31T08:39:00.000-05:00Tom,True faith produces works. The good works are ...Tom,<BR/><BR/><I>True faith produces works. The good works are a result of the true faith. </I><BR/><BR/>I've heard this many, many times. "Faith alone saves but saving faith is never alone."<BR/><BR/>But there is no scriptural basis for such a slogan. Rather righteousness produces holiness. And iniquity produces filthiness.<BR/>A good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree bad fruit.<BR/><BR/>Such is the biblical order.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore there is no such distinction between "true" faith and "head" faith! Where do you get this concept from? Certainly not from the scriptures.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>The works are not required for salvation since salvation takes place before the works begin. If Calvinism believed in a works based salvation, then would it not make sense that the person would have to do the works before they gained salvation...not after? Just a thought.</I><BR/><BR/>Calvinism is a works-based system to the core. Simply put, there is no salvation apart from works. <BR/><BR/>It is like this:<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>salvation = justification + sanctification<BR/><BR/>justification => faith + sanctification<BR/><BR/>sanctification => works<BR/><BR/>Or: salvation => faith + works </I><BR/><BR/>If there are no works in a person's life then there is no salvation and the faith is said to be false. So you must do works, or else you are not saved. What is the difference between a "classical" works-based religion and Calvinism? Well the only difference is the "boasting issue". Mormons must work and (think they) can boast. Calvinists must work as well but simply cannot boast. They must interpret their works in a different way: as the works of God in them and through them. That's the only real difference. The exclusion of boasting. <BR/><BR/>So Calvinism teaches salvation by works but nevertheless without being able to boast!a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-79503364697744513082008-08-31T05:02:00.000-05:002008-08-31T05:02:00.000-05:00chalee,The grace is free but not cheap. An infinit...chalee,<BR/><BR/>The grace is free but not cheap. An infinite price was paid for it.<BR/><BR/>I do not discard the scripture you require. Lets start with gal. 5:16-25<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. </I><BR/><BR/>I have not seen anyone who is immune against the desires of the flesh. Not even those who profess to "walk by the spirit". Many walk by the spirit, don't they? Yet no one overcomes the desires of the flesh. I do not know any christian who does not serve his flesh in some way. Even Paul admitted (Rom 7) that he serves his flesh and is a slave to it. Does he double-talk? I don't think so, but whoever tries to control his flesh is doomed to fail. Such is self-righteousness anyway.<BR/><BR/><I>17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. </I><BR/><BR/>This is exactly what is explained in Rom 7. We live by the law of the spirit, that is, by faith. But we serve the law of sin because we are in the flesh. It is impossible to overcome the desires of the flesh while in the flesh.<BR/><BR/><I> 18But if you are led by the Spirit,you are not under the Law. <BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Here we go! We are not under the law because we live by another law. The law of faith. Do not judge the fruit by the tree but the tree by the fruit!<BR/><BR/><BR/><I> 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, <BR/><BR/> 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, <BR/><BR/> 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. </I><BR/><BR/>Well, I have news: Good news: For these reasons mentioned above, there is the grace of God! We receive grace, so that we may inherit the kingdom of God, even though we cannot help being slaves to the flesh! Such is the good news of God's grace!<BR/><BR/><BR/><I> 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, <BR/><BR/> 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. </I><BR/><BR/>I agree. And how do we now know, reckognize these fruit? We must be able to know other people by their fruit. That was my point in the comment above. How do you know whether someone posseses the qualities mentioned above? For example, do Mormons possess them?<BR/>And didn't for example the Pharisees possess the qualities "self-control" and "faithfulness" ?<BR/>So how do we <B>know a tree by its fruit? </B><BR/><BR/>Well, I know we've had this already... False religion cannot bear good fruit. <BR/>So what about Mat. 7:16 and the identification of fruit? That is the crucial point. And it is explained in "On the knowledge of good and evil VIII" (livingbyknowledge.blogspot.com)<BR/><BR/><I> 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. <BR/><BR/> 25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. </I><BR/><BR/>Since we live by the spirit, we are encouraged to show this. Is there a difference between "live" and "walk" by the spirit? Well, normally <I>living</I> = <I>walking</I> but the apostle makes a distinction here. <BR/>Surely, we are to behave properly. Why, for our own sake? No, for the world's sake, so that the world may be convicted and / or come to faith as well. I thoroughly elaborated on this in "On Sanctification I-III" on my blog on the gospel of John.<BR/><BR/>So Paul makes a distinction between living by the spirit and walking by the spirit. Believers live by the spirit. Therefore they shall walk correspondingly.<BR/><BR/>But the question is open: How do you know someone by its fruit? Do all Christians behave properly? Are there non-christians who seem to have a lot of "good fruit"? <BR/><BR/>So what does this tell us?.....<BR/><BR/>(Response to other scripture references soon!)<BR/><BR/>Greetings <BR/>Kehrhelma helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-14794902484005349642008-08-31T00:12:00.000-05:002008-08-31T00:12:00.000-05:00Tom,You wrote: "Election is Christ centered becaus...Tom,<BR/><BR/>You wrote: "Election is Christ centered because of the <B>agreement</B> between the Father and the Son."<BR/><BR/>Are you saying that Calvinistic Election is Christ-centered because God and Christ <I>jointly</I> chose us in Christ, as per Ephesians 1:4? How would that make any sense? <BR/><BR/>It sounds like Calvinistic Election can only become Christocentric if the Son assumes the role of the Father in choosing us in Christ.<BR/><BR/>In contrast, Arminian Election is Christocentric because Christ is the central reason for why God accepts anyone, period, as per John 14:6, and thus it is Christ's role as Mediator that can bring a person into the grace of God.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-2411394994995713112008-08-30T22:55:00.000-05:002008-08-30T22:55:00.000-05:00Richard,I must bring us back to my last post in wh...Richard,<BR/><BR/>I must bring us back to my last post in which I mentioned the Covenant of Redemption. Election is Christ centered because of the agreement between the Father and the Son. <BR/><BR/>Also, you must understand, as I said before, that God ordains the ends as well as the means. If you continue to deny this fact then you will continue to have a skewed understanding of God's sovereignty in this matter.<BR/><BR/>Tom<BR/>www.sanctification.wordpress.comTom Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09644165117159582995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-20546715958056682202008-08-30T21:48:00.000-05:002008-08-30T21:48:00.000-05:00Tom,I need to recall this clip from your post:****...Tom,<BR/><BR/>I need to recall this clip from your post:<BR/><BR/>***************<BR/><BR/>Richard Coords: "Our standing before God is derived from our identification with Christ, in Christ, apart from, we have zero standing before God, none, nada, zilch."<BR/><BR/>Tom: "Calvinists agree completely with this statement. The problem is that we must define how we get our identification in Christ. It is given to us by God...."<BR/><BR/>*************<BR/><BR/>Naturally, then, the Arminian asks: "What would be the basis for such a standing with God to be given thusly?" <BR/><BR/>Does it have to do with something based upon your identification with Christ, which you said that you absolutely agree with? No, but it has to do with your state of being eternally "in the Father," and that's troubling because it represents man's path to the Father where Christ is irrelevant, because Christ no longer becomes the <I>source</I> of our standing with God, but the <I>result</I> of our standing with God.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-50153844929262138352008-08-30T21:42:00.000-05:002008-08-30T21:42:00.000-05:00Kevin,Interesting contrast: Christ centered vs. de...Kevin,<BR/><BR/>Interesting contrast: Christ centered vs. decree centered.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-49255209868585542362008-08-30T12:31:00.000-05:002008-08-30T12:31:00.000-05:00Chalee,Thanks for the info. I have noticed the Ke...Chalee,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the info. <BR/><BR/>I have noticed the Kehrhelm has chosen not to interact with any of the Scripture references I used to answer his questions.<BR/><BR/>Tom<BR/>www.sanctification.wordpress.comTom Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09644165117159582995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-40137813755013525792008-08-30T12:19:00.000-05:002008-08-30T12:19:00.000-05:00tom-all of this was explained to Kehrhelm in the c...tom-<BR/><BR/>all of this was explained to Kehrhelm in the comments to the aug 13 post, using many of the exact same verses - he has yet to explain how he understands gal5:16-25, romans 6 or the entire book of james. he seems committed to doctrines of cheap grace and easy-believism...he thinks "faith" is mere head knowledge that is completely disconnected to the way one lives.<BR/><BR/>just FYI.chaleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11362350064376943436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-6835455467540890462008-08-30T07:52:00.000-05:002008-08-30T07:52:00.000-05:00I think you guys are all missing a very important ...I think you guys are all missing a very important point. God ordains the ends all well as the means. God determines who will be among the Elect in eternity past - that is the "ends". He also determines the method in which they will become a member of the Elect - that is the "means". This method was the Covenant of Redemption in which Jesus becomes the way.<BR/><BR/>Tom<BR/>www.sanctification.wordpress.comTom Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09644165117159582995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-64026493905726781492008-08-30T00:38:00.000-05:002008-08-30T00:38:00.000-05:00Hi Richard, you quoted Vance who says God, by a so...Hi Richard, you quoted Vance who says <I>God, by a sovereign, eternal decree, has determined before the foundation of the world who shall be saved and who shall be lost.</I>. <BR/><BR/>George Bryson says something similar, summarizing Calvinism as follows: <I>You will be saved or damned for all eternity because you were saved or damned from all eternity.</I><BR/><BR/>I think these quotes both hit the nail on the head. Calvinism is not Christ centered. It is instead "decree centered".Kevin Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472900037134045450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-79556032234082519102008-08-29T08:11:00.000-05:002008-08-29T08:11:00.000-05:00Kerhelm,You said "It is not quite that easy. There...Kerhelm,<BR/><BR/>You said <BR/><BR/>"<I>It is not quite that easy. There are 3 kinds of believers. 1) soon-to-fall-away-beleivers (rocky ground), 2) no-fruit-believers (thorny ground) and 3) genuine believers (good ground).<BR/><BR/>Calvinists agree that only type 3) is truly converted. How do you know whether you are a true believer and not deluded into thinking you are?</I>"<BR/><BR/>The assurance for all believers is in what Christ has done. Philippians 2:12-13 tells us "<I>12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, <B>work out your own salvation with fear and trembling</B>, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.</I>" The Book of 1 John was written to believers for the purpose of giving them assurance of their salvation. In 1 John there are many "tests" which the believer can use to examine himself to see if he is truly saved. This self examination is commanded by Scripture but it does not result in a works based salvation.<BR/><BR/>You said<BR/><BR/>"<I>They do not know how to identify the fruit that makes one a true disciple (Matthew 7:16)! At least I haven't met a Calvinist who is able to tell, whether the person sitting next to him in church is actually his brother in Christ! Think about that.</I>"<BR/><BR/>If this is true then it is a sad thing. (I am beginning to be concerned about the Calvinists you refer to...if they are truly believers they should be able to give you these answers.) The Bible answers this question for us as well. Galatians 5:19-23 directly answers this. It says "<I>19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, [4] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.</I>"<BR/><BR/>You also said<BR/><BR/>"<I>I have yet to see a Calvinist who is able to "know a tree by its fruit", who knows where to draw the line between "true, saving faith" and "head faith". You say faith is a gift of God. But is shallow, false head faith also a gift of God? Where is the difference?</I>"<BR/><BR/>Only God truly knows a persons heart. It is possible for a person to produce all the outward signs but still be unsaved. The fact that there may be some undetected "false faith" out there in no way negates the true faith given as a gift to true believers by God. <BR/><BR/>You also said <BR/><BR/>"<I>And how do Calvinists do that? How do you know whether you are one of the elect? Obviously faith alone does not make it. According to Calvinism, one needs works or else there is no "genuine" faith to begin with. You end up with a system of works-righteousness. Salvation by works.</I>"<BR/><BR/>This is simply not true. I think you have been misinformed or misled on this point. Calvinism does NOT teach that you have to have works in order to have a "genuine" faith. The book of James addresses this. In Chapter 2 verses 14-16, it says "<I>14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good [2] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.</I>"<BR/><BR/>True faith produces works. The good works are a result of the true faith. The works are not required for salvation since salvation takes place before the works begin. If Calvinism believed in a works based salvation, then would it not make sense that the person would have to do the works before they gained salvation...not after? Just a thought.<BR/><BR/>Tom<BR/>www.sanctification.wordpress.comTom Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09644165117159582995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-81540986956337112562008-08-29T03:42:00.000-05:002008-08-29T03:42:00.000-05:00Tom,concerning election, father and son. Okay, may...Tom,<BR/><BR/>concerning election, father and son. <BR/><BR/>Okay, maybe one might better say Calvinism is election-centered. The religion boils down to a system one could call Check-if-you-are-saved-ism. You must convince yourself that you were elected. <BR/><BR/>And how do Calvinists do that? How do you know whether you are one of the elect? Obviously faith alone does not make it. According to Calvinism, one needs works or else there is no "genuine" faith to begin with. You end up with a system of works-righteousness. Salvation by works. <BR/><BR/>Or how do you know whether you are elect, if not by your works? <BR/><BR/>So father-centered might not be an appropriate term, but rather works-centered.<BR/><BR/>Calvinism = Check-if-you-are-saved-ism.<BR/><BR/>That's it. And if you are honest you will admit how true this is.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-44348105820735706632008-08-29T03:28:00.000-05:002008-08-29T03:28:00.000-05:00Hello Tom,God's temple is in man. God is glorfied ...Hello Tom,<BR/><BR/>God's temple is in man. God is glorfied in man (John 17:22, 15:8 and others). <BR/><BR/>It is explained in "Synergism, Monergism and the Temple of God", the latest post there: http://meditationonthegospelofjohn.blogspot.com<BR/><BR/>Do you know what Jesus meant when He said "the father is in Me"?<BR/><BR/>Greetings<BR/>Kehrhelm K.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.com