tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post6193082282516668075..comments2023-05-12T10:37:20.308-05:00Comments on Examining Calvinism: Salvation without faith?Richard Coordshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-6082559537276847212013-07-28T20:51:26.168-05:002013-07-28T20:51:26.168-05:00How many steps did you complete to receive the &qu...How many steps did you complete to receive the "free gift" of Salvation?<br /> <br />Is this a "free" gift?<br /><br />I tell my child that I have an incredible gift for him. However, in order for the gift to be his, he must:<br /><br />1. apologize for his bad behavior and sincerely mean it.<br />2. he must commit to change his ways and follow MY ways for the rest of his life.<br />3. he must make a decision that he WANTS my gift.<br />4. he must then approach me, hold out his hands, ask me for the gift, and cooperate with me, as I place the gift into his hands.<br /><br />If he does all this, he will receive his gift. But...if he chooses to reject my gift, I will damn him to HELL!<br /><br />Now is this "gift" really a gift...or a REWARD for making the right decision?<br /> <br />No, that is NOT a gift.<br />. <br />This is a gift: "Dear Son, I have a gift for you. Here it is. I love you more than words can describe", and then I place the gift in my son's lap. No strings attached. The gift is his. He did nothing to receive it. I did everything.<br /><br />THAT is a gift! <br /><br />So what is God's free gift? It is the whole salvation package: faith, belief, repentence, forgiveness of sins, atonement, and eternal life. It is ALL free... to those whom God has predestined, before the world existed, for reasons we do not know, to be his children.<br /><br />http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com/2013/07/how-many-steps-did-you-complete-to.html<br /><br />Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-88795000887406737672008-08-09T12:16:00.000-05:002008-08-09T12:16:00.000-05:00Addition:35Then Jesus told them, "You are going to...Addition:<BR/><BR/><I>35Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.</I><BR/><BR/>So, one shall believe in the light <B> so that </B> one becomes a son of light. A "son of light" is someone who is in the light = "can see" = have knowledge of the truth.<BR/>When did he become a son of light? Answer: <B>While</B> the light was there he could <B>see</B> and thereby receive the light=life (John 1:4). "So that" means "in order to". One gets into the light (son of light) because the light is there. No one believes in the light because he is somehow already a "son of light". Such is utter eisegesis and a violation of the text. <BR/><BR/>And a "son of light" is a "son of God" is "born of God".a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-56853824262964962802008-08-09T12:06:00.000-05:002008-08-09T12:06:00.000-05:00Yes, I contacted it.Yes, I contacted it.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-86898891397162211852008-08-07T13:17:00.000-05:002008-08-07T13:17:00.000-05:00Hey Helmet,On the basis of Eph 1:13, I agree.Have ...Hey Helmet,<BR/><BR/>On the basis of Eph 1:13, I agree.<BR/><BR/>Have you had a chance to contact SEA yet? Here is the contact information:<BR/><BR/>http://www.evangelicalarminians.com/contact<BR/> <BR/>I'll check out that Blog article tonight and comment in that post.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-87282244871025054142008-08-07T10:28:00.000-05:002008-08-07T10:28:00.000-05:00An important key verse to the question about faith...An important key verse to the question about faith and the preceding regeneration might be John 12:36:<BR/><BR/>In order to become a child of the light, one must believe in the light. So if one is a child of the light one is "born again." And this is AFTER beleiving.<BR/><BR/>Reading the concept of preemptive regeneration into that verse is sheer eisegesisa helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-44080436034487792082008-08-07T09:51:00.000-05:002008-08-07T09:51:00.000-05:00Richard,as to what the death of Christ actually ac...Richard,<BR/>as to what the death of Christ actually accomplished, you might read also:<BR/><BR/>http://meditationonthegospelofjohn.blogspot.com/2008/07/whom-did-christ-die-for.htmla helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-32219232160040828272008-08-06T19:53:00.000-05:002008-08-06T19:53:00.000-05:00That's a good point, as that verse clearly states,...That's a good point, as that verse clearly states, and the fact that one must then believe in the resurrection in order to be "saved," as per Romans 10:9-10.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-29763196326364686742008-08-06T16:28:00.000-05:002008-08-06T16:28:00.000-05:00The atonement does not save anyone without the res...The atonement does not save anyone without the resurrection. Paul says "If Christ has not risen, then you have believed in vain, <B> and are still in your sins </B> (Somewhere 1 Cor. 15)<BR/><BR/>So the death of Chirst does not accomplish any forgiveness alonea helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-25101550387576951552008-08-05T21:40:00.000-05:002008-08-05T21:40:00.000-05:00Hey Kevin.Honestly, I really wasn’t trying to make...Hey Kevin.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, I really wasn’t trying to make an accusation against the integrity of Calvinists. Piper and MacArthur are fine Christians. I’m simply trying to say that what we see in the Scientific community had also plagued the Protestant community back in the 1600’s, and therefore all of us as Christians, Calvinist and Arminian alike, need to have a watchful eye. Yes, I did come from a Calvinist Church that was very intolerant, and which also kicked out my Calvinist brother in Law, for reasons that border on cultic. But by God’s grace, he was able to share his experience with another Calvinist, D. James Kennedy, and my brother in law shared with me their conversation, where Kennedy discussed similar intolerances that he also experienced. It’s a long story, but the point is to be on guard. <BR/><BR/>You wrote: “To say that someone will infallibly come to faith because Christ has purchased them, does not make them saved before they exist or even before they repent and believe.”<BR/><BR/>Fair enough, but I reiterate White’s quote: “The difference, then, between Hunt's view and the Reformed view of the atonement is simply this: Did Christ actually save anyone at the cross, or did He simply make people savable?" (Debating Calvinism, p.171) So White seems to indicate that the atonement “save” them. But if he meant that the atonement “saves” by providing faith, then that’s understandable, but my question is where in Scripture are we told that the atonement generates faith?Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-90867907607780790342008-08-05T16:09:00.000-05:002008-08-05T16:09:00.000-05:00Richard,I think the core issue on this "saved with...Richard,<BR/><BR/>I think the core issue on this "saved without faith" objection is the determination of the timing of salvation. To say that someone will infallibly come to faith because Christ has purchased them, does not make them saved before they exist or even before they repent and believe. <BR/><BR/>Salvation is contingent on faith and repentance of the sinner. Calvinists believe that Scripture teaches Christ purchased the faith and repentance necessary to meet the contingency for those given to Him by the Father. They must believe to be saved and willingly believe. I think Ps. 110, especially v. 3 speaks beautifully to this. <BR/><BR/>In a sense, you could say that Calvinists believe in an "unlimited" atonement as to its effect for those for whom it was designed; whereas Arminians believe in a limited atonement as to effect - it gets everyone equally to the potential of salvation.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-62713885819055000192008-08-05T14:21:00.000-05:002008-08-05T14:21:00.000-05:00Richard,By the way, on Ben Stein's post, I wasn't ...Richard,<BR/><BR/><I>By the way, on Ben Stein's post, I wasn't trying to take a pot-shot at Calvinists, but only trying to take a sober look at the history of intolerance and persecution within the Protestant community, in order to identify warning signs that may pop up in modern settings. Calvinist churches of today, are just as capable of a "Gestapo" mentality as Arminian or non-Calvinist churches. I've seen it first hand.</I><BR/><BR/>I am unfamiliar with your local and personal experiences with Calvinists, but I would happily compare the grace and patience with an opponent on the doctrines of grace by a John Piper, John MacArthur or anyone else on the Calvinist Conference Circuit with the Caners Grim and others. <BR/><BR/>I have, at least, appreciated the tone of our discussion.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-19361381194786714392008-08-04T20:15:00.000-05:002008-08-04T20:15:00.000-05:00Hey Kevin,Focusing on the first point, there is a ...Hey Kevin,<BR/><BR/>Focusing on the first point, there is a big difference between something that is "from" the foundation of the world vs. something that is from "before" the foundation of the world. Take Luke 11:49-51 for instance: “‘For this reason also the wisdom of God said, “I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, so that the blood of all the prophets, shed <B>since the foundation of the world</B>, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.”’” So if you similarly inserted “before” [Greek: pro] then wouldn't you be forced to conclude that the prophets were martyred before they were born?<BR/><BR/>In other words, "since or from the foundation of the world," implies something from Genesis to present, while "from before the foundation of the world," implies something pre-Genesis. My advice is to check the original greek in order to see if the greek word for "before" is found at Revelation 13:9.<BR/><BR/>By the way, on Ben Stein's post, I wasn't trying to take a pot-shot at Calvinists, but only trying to take a sober look at the history of intolerance and persecution within the Protestant community, in order to identify warning signs that may pop up in modern settings. Calvinist churches of today, are just as capable of a "Gestapo" mentality as Arminian or non-Calvinist churches. I've seen it first hand.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-75674176396873377982008-08-04T17:40:00.000-05:002008-08-04T17:40:00.000-05:00Richard,As to Abraham's bosom, what do you make of...Richard,<BR/><BR/>As to Abraham's bosom, what do you make of Rev. 13:8. In the KJV, it refers to the Lamb Who was "slain from the foundation of the world." In the ESV, it is translated as those whose names were "written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." Either way you go on translating it into English, you get the sense that this was all planned way before any OT saints were in Abraham's bosom.<BR/><BR/>I maintain: the Cross was not Plan B.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-39805683519834954272008-08-04T17:33:00.000-05:002008-08-04T17:33:00.000-05:00Richard,So I'm thinking that Helmet's position is ...Richard,<BR/><BR/>So I'm thinking that Helmet's position is not exactly typical of Arminian thinking? Specifically, you would disagree with his assessment of the believer as a "co-savior" with Christ, I take it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-88964775626977934102008-08-04T08:30:00.000-05:002008-08-04T08:30:00.000-05:00Hey Kevin,I just posted an analogy from an Arminia...Hey Kevin,<BR/><BR/>I just posted an analogy from an Arminian book which answers the question. See the last quote, specifically.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-5804200560608186802008-08-03T16:39:00.000-05:002008-08-03T16:39:00.000-05:00Richard, Is Helmet's position that we are co-savio...Richard, <BR/><BR/>Is Helmet's position that we are co-saviors with Christ consistent with the Arminian system?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-8103093555584979052008-08-03T10:19:00.000-05:002008-08-03T10:19:00.000-05:00Kevin, Most assuredly, Christians are co-saviors w...Kevin, <BR/><BR/>Most assuredly, Christians are co-saviors with God. Or what do you think does it mean to <I>put your light on a lampstand so that people coming in can see the light</I> ?<BR/><BR/>I don't have a bible at hand right now, but in John 17:6;22 (if I remember the verses right) Jesus says something like <I>"the glory that You have given me, I have given to them"</I><BR/><BR/>The glory is the light Christians receive from God. They can and shall let this light radiate, putting it on a lampstand, thereby doing the saving work of the father.<BR/><BR/>Didn't Jesus do the works of the father and say "the father is in me"? And inasmuch as the father is in you, you become God's co-savior.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-7467386743042181472008-08-02T17:55:00.000-05:002008-08-02T17:55:00.000-05:00Helmet,Are you saying that Christians are co-savio...Helmet,<BR/><BR/>Are you saying that Christians are co-saviors with God?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-49003937171258274352008-08-02T14:58:00.000-05:002008-08-02T14:58:00.000-05:00examining,I've already seen that site. And yes, I ...examining,<BR/><BR/>I've already seen that site. And yes, I am interested.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-72049279665058967082008-08-02T14:55:00.000-05:002008-08-02T14:55:00.000-05:00Demons believe attributes about God. Do they have ...<I>Demons believe attributes about God. Do they have eternal life? James 2:9.</I><BR/><BR/>I think also demons believe in the unknowability of God. Whatever is unknown or even unknowable causes fear. That is why the demons tremble. And so do Muslims. And Calvinists get close to this attitude. They don't believe that God removed the mystery about Himself.<BR/><BR/>If someone is a Christian, then Christ is in him, and the father is in him. He can then do some work of the father, like Jesus did the works of the father. Christians can draw people according to John 6:44. But Calvinists deny that Christians can draw others exactly as they themselves were drawn. Why do Calvinists never explain the mystery of conversion? Calvin wrote a lot of things. But he did not answer the mystery of John 6:45, which is this: <I>what does the father teach there?</I> and neither did he solve the problem of the preceding verse 44: <I>what does God do there? </I><BR/><BR/>However, these questions are the key to understanding the mystery of conversion and "irresitible grace". If Calvinists would only teach other persons what they have "heard and learned" from God, then they would thereby publish the access data to heaven and do the works of the father. Unfortunately Calvinists don't do that and only say something like: <I>"I have my faith, Lord willing, God will enlighten you by His grace as well".</I><BR/><BR/>Sadly, Calvinists do not seem to have the father in them.<BR/><BR/>Calvin did not become God's co-savior. He left the christian community with a mysterious God - like Allah.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-24457248403174851052008-08-02T10:15:00.000-05:002008-08-02T10:15:00.000-05:00Helmet,What Calvinists have you been talking to? ...Helmet,<BR/><BR/>What Calvinists have you been talking to? Don't struggle with God? Don't wrestle with the Word?<BR/><BR/>I think anyone who has honestly read mainstream Calvinists would easily disagree with that assessment. I suppose Jonathan Edwards was a light-weight? Have you read the Institutes? Calvin really didn't explore much in those two volumes or in the 22 volumes of commentary on the verse by verse exposition of the Bible, I guess. That is a statement that just does not stand up to the vast evidence of history and betrays a severe lack of knowledge on your behalf. <BR/><BR/>I don't mean to be unkind, but that is a ludicrous sentiment.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-38588025878451476172008-08-02T10:09:00.000-05:002008-08-02T10:09:00.000-05:00Helemet,Eternal life is the knowledge of God.Demon...Helemet,<BR/><BR/><I>Eternal life is the knowledge of God.</I><BR/><BR/>Demons believe attributes about God. Do they have eternal life? James 2:9.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301648487774699607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-47995577265066530902008-08-02T10:06:00.000-05:002008-08-02T10:06:00.000-05:00Addition: I am not saying that Calvinists are liar...Addition: I am not saying that Calvinists are liars or that they are "not saved". But they are ensnared in grave falsehoods and must cut thorns in order to let the clear sun light shine into them so that they may grow and produce fruit. Calvinists do not struggle with God. They are morecomfortable with the unknowability of God, like Allahists. They do not enter the fray with God, like David, struggling for God's blessings. Calvinists don't do that.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-91338804206316033832008-08-02T09:39:00.000-05:002008-08-02T09:39:00.000-05:00Kevin,Please explain to me how God can be Three in...Kevin,<BR/><BR/><I>Please explain to me how God can be Three in Person and One in Essence.</I><BR/><BR/>This is not explained in a few sentences. Lord willing, I'll be writing something comprehensive on my blogs soon.<BR/><BR/>However, there is something in the blog article "The meaning of Christ's sacrificial death", which already explains this quite a bit. Ironically, the trinity is what makes God knowable instead of unknowable. Yes, a unitarian God like Allah is indeed unknowable.<BR/><BR/>Concerning your following questions: while I hold that God is knowable that is not to say that I have all answers. Surely I do not know how God made the world either. But when it comes to salvation, the knowability of God is absolutely crucial. The key verse is JOhn 17:3 <B>this is eternal life that they may know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.</B><BR/><BR/>Eternal life ist the <I>knowledge</I> of God. <BR/><BR/>And here is the point where Calvinist's quit their fray with God. They do not challenge God to reveal Himself to them. They are quite confortable in their lack of knowledge. <BR/><BR/><BR/>John 6:45 is another key verse: <B>"And they shall all be taught by God."</B><BR/><BR/>This teaching from God, that is the drawing to conversion, is accountable, expressible. <BR/><BR/>That is crucial!<BR/>All truth from God is pronounced, communicated by the logos (John 1:1) The logos communicates ALL truth from God in clarity (logos = word, reason => where "logics" comes from). The logos is Christ, the word of God. If someone says he has "heard and learned from the father" (John 6:45) and cannot communicate what this teaching actually is, what the drawing (John 6:44) actually IS, then that person <I> does not have the logos in Himself.</I> and is found a liar.<BR/><BR/>So here, the knowable God is the savior, not the mysterious God.a helmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10159557031242847451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7221499500051138256.post-14867315553651125832008-08-02T08:44:00.000-05:002008-08-02T08:44:00.000-05:00Hey Kevin,I'm running late for a 10:00 am Bible st...Hey Kevin,<BR/><BR/>I'm running late for a 10:00 am Bible study, but I just wanted to point out that while Christ was on the cross, Abraham's Bosom was already filled with the OT Saints, so even if no one else besides they and His disciples had believed, Calvary would have at least netted their entrance into Heaven. Back in a little while.Richard Coordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600859155973820653noreply@blogger.com